The Nightmare Before Christmas (1993)
We debate whether The Nightmare Before Christmas is a Halloween movie or a Christmas movie. We explore why the film is so polarizing, noting the stop‑motion style, the soundtrack, and the cultural saturation around the title. We give the film low to middling scores and broaden the conversation to how holiday commercialization and personal history shape our views.
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Transcript
Like that.
Speaker A:That to me, is what I look.
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, no.
Speaker A:This is just.
Speaker A:You're using this to traumatize your children so they don't ask for Christmas presents.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That's all this is because you're.
Speaker A:You're gonna teach them that if they ask for something that Santa doesn't want to bring them, he's just gonna send them a shrinking head.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker A:So that's how I always looked at it.
Speaker B:Welco the work podcast.
Speaker B:We fashion ourselves cinematic judge and Jerry.
Speaker B:My name is JJ Carter.
Speaker B:I'm here with my co host, Alec Burgess.
Speaker A:Let's get it.
Speaker B:We appreciate you tuning in.
Speaker B:Go ahead, hit that.
Speaker B:Follow, subscribe.
Speaker B:Like bell notification buttons.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It helps us keep up with the pod, helps us grow the podcast.
Speaker B:You keep up with episodes.
Speaker B:Both are a win, win.
Speaker B:And then, yeah, it's all those things.
Speaker B:But you can also tell friend, family member about us, tell Halloween lovers about us.
Speaker B:How about that?
Speaker B:Even the Halloween or Christmas lovers.
Speaker B:We'll take you.
Speaker A:Both.
Speaker B:We'll lump in Thanksgiving just because it.
Speaker B:It's in there somewhere.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker A:Everybody loves food.
Speaker B:For sure.
Speaker B:For sure.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Look, we moved on to next month.
Speaker B:Those that are listening, I do apologize.
Speaker B:We apologize.
Speaker B:How about that?
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:We were missing an episode in Halloween.
Speaker A:Up is what happened in country.
Speaker B:I mean, let's just be honest.
Speaker B:Like, there's just two of us and we're both super busy, and it just kind of caught up with us.
Speaker B:So we apologize.
Speaker A:You just.
Speaker A:Yeah, you just lost your mic.
Speaker A:This is.
Speaker A:This is proof that JJ doesn't like to apologize.
Speaker A:Nope.
Speaker B:This is stupid.
Speaker A:There we go.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:Dude, my back.
Speaker B:Now.
Speaker A:You're back now.
Speaker B:It muted me and then I could hear that.
Speaker B:I couldn't hear anything.
Speaker B:This is horseshit.
Speaker B:What is going on right now?
Speaker B:Just because it.
Speaker B:This is just kind of how the world's going for us right now.
Speaker B:But anyway, apologize.
Speaker B:But we're back.
Speaker B:Maybe.
Speaker B:As long as everything keeps working.
Speaker A:So far, so good.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:New month.
Speaker B:We're in November.
Speaker B:Alec, what was.
Speaker B:What are we titling this month at this point?
Speaker B:Like,.
Speaker A:We're.
Speaker A:We're just gonna go old school.
Speaker A:Is it a Christmas movie or is it a Halloween movie?
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker A:We're gonna split the month.
Speaker A:November never gets any credit anyway, so we're just gonna throw by the wayside.
Speaker A:We got four movies that are essentially.
Speaker A:Is it a Christmas movie or is it a Halloween movie?
Speaker A:And we're gonna try and avoid the.
Speaker A:Oh, it's both.
Speaker A:Nonsense.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Plaguing It.
Speaker A:So that's the kind of goal for this one.
Speaker B:I like it.
Speaker B:There it is.
Speaker B:Is it or isn't it?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So there it is.
Speaker B:So we're kicking it off with a good movie.
Speaker B:But I'll tell you before we get there, let's talk about Dobby.
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Speaker B:And we appreciate that.
Speaker B:So let's jump into the movie.
Speaker B:This week, kicking off November, we are doing.
Speaker B:I just did I just.
Speaker B:How do I say kicking off November?
Speaker B:It just.
Speaker B:That makes.
Speaker B:How.
Speaker B: ,: Speaker B:It was written by Tim Burton, Michael McDowell, Caroline Thompson, and it was directed by Henry Selick.
Speaker B:It stars Danny Elfman, Chris Sarandon, Catherine o', Hara, William Hickey, Glenn Shaddix, Paul Rubens, Ken Page, Edward Ivory, Greg Proops and Carrie Katz.
Speaker B:It's about Jax Kellington, the king of Halloween town who discovers Christmas town, but in his attempts to bring Christmas to his home, he causes confusion.
Speaker B:That got really.
Speaker B:It started off strong.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It kind of got weird at the end there, but I mean, it's not inaccurate.
Speaker B:Just got a little.
Speaker B:It's like.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'm gonna give all this detail.
Speaker B:Okay, I'm done.
Speaker A:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:Oh, character limit got hit.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:We rotating again?
Speaker A:No, we.
Speaker A:Could I just start this one off?
Speaker B:Okay, you just start this one off.
Speaker A:I hate this movie.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker B:Fair.
Speaker A:This is my wife's favorite movie of all.
Speaker B:Really.
Speaker A:I. Yeah, we've Jack Skellington Let me see if I can turn the camera.
Speaker B:Oh,.
Speaker A:That's funny.
Speaker A:There's two right there.
Speaker A:And there's far more.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Places.
Speaker A:And so it is.
Speaker A:Jack Skellington is all over this house.
Speaker A:We went to Japan last week.
Speaker A:Everything done up there.
Speaker A:Halloween.
Speaker A:Jack Skellington.
Speaker B:Really.
Speaker A:Came home with like, 47 other Jack Skellington things.
Speaker A:Like, every opportunity to purchase Jack Skellington happens.
Speaker A:And I. I find this almost like this is one of those polarizing movies where it's either your entire identity or you can't stand it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Nobody's like, oh, yeah, it's.
Speaker A:It's just okay, right?
Speaker A:Like, it's an okay movie.
Speaker A:It's one of the most polarizing movies ever seen.
Speaker A:And I happen to marry someone who loves it.
Speaker A:I despise it.
Speaker A:I cannot get behind it.
Speaker A:I think part of it is the stop motion.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Then the other part of it is I just kind of look at, like, I don't.
Speaker A:Don't understand.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:And Tim Burton's a weird cat.
Speaker B:Oh, for sure.
Speaker A:He's out there.
Speaker A:But some of his stuff, very, very good.
Speaker A:This is one of those where.
Speaker A:I know it put him on the map, but I'm just.
Speaker A:Atlanta.
Speaker A:I don't get it.
Speaker A:I don't understand the.
Speaker A:The almost cult like effect it has on certain people, especially one that I married.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But it's just one of those where it is the quintessential.
Speaker A:The Nightmare Before Christmas.
Speaker A:Is this a Halloween movie or is it a Christmas movie?
Speaker A:And everybody says both, and I don't agree.
Speaker A:It's a Halloween movie that happens to have Christmas in it.
Speaker B:That's funny.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:But, yeah, it's a.
Speaker A:It's up there.
Speaker A:So what about you?
Speaker A:Are you a lover of this movie?
Speaker B:It's ironic that you say what you just said, because I'm neither.
Speaker A:Like,.
Speaker B:I have literally no.
Speaker A:Feelings about it.
Speaker B:Well, yeah, I mean, it's just one of those movies that I.
Speaker B:So I guess I have a couple of feelings, but not about the movie itself, which is interesting.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like, the movie to me, when I sit down and watch it, I'm just like, whatever, it's Nightmare Before Christmas.
Speaker B:But I do have strong feelings about the people.
Speaker B:Like, you say how people get when it comes to this movie.
Speaker B:And this will happen a couple times this month, I think, like, where I'm like, I don't understand the.
Speaker B:The extreme reaction on either end of it.
Speaker B:Like, I, like, I'm like, I don't get the hate.
Speaker B:I don't get the, like.
Speaker B:Because I Used.
Speaker B:I have a buddy.
Speaker B:I had a buddy that I used to work with that was the same like we had back.
Speaker B:Back in the day when everybody was in the office and we call centers had the little cubicle slash pods or whatever, you know.
Speaker B:And I was a trainer in a call center, a very large call center.
Speaker B:And you'd walk down this hall and you'd see all the decorations and the pods.
Speaker B:What's not.
Speaker B:And then sometimes in Halloween and Christmas time, you'd see a lot of like, Nightmare Before Christmas stuff.
Speaker B:And then there was Josh and it was like Jack Skellington crawling out of his pod.
Speaker B:And it.
Speaker B:But this.
Speaker B:And then.
Speaker B:But here's the thing.
Speaker B:The holiday season would end and everybody's.
Speaker B:Jack Skellington's.
Speaker B:A Nightmare Before Christmas would go down.
Speaker B:And Josh is Never did.
Speaker B:Like, he didn't decorate for Halloween and Christmas.
Speaker B:He decorated for Nightmare Before Christmas.
Speaker B:And like, that's.
Speaker B:He just.
Speaker B:Dude, like, he was obsessed.
Speaker B:And like, it annoyed me because I'm like, this.
Speaker B:This movie's not that good that you need to like.
Speaker B:And I'm sure you feel the same way on a more extreme feeling than I am.
Speaker B:But, like, I would tell her, like, listen, that is not a movie to do what's behind me with year round.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Like,.
Speaker A:This shouldn't be your ride or die.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:My opinion.
Speaker B:But I.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:I don't get that.
Speaker B:I also, on the same token, outside of those that are just like.
Speaker B:Because it's so popular on so many levels, you just kind of have to be contradictory and not like it because you're like, I don't get it.
Speaker B:Like,.
Speaker A:Me,.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:Like, I get that.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:But I don't get, like the extreme hate where, like, people, this movie just sucks.
Speaker B:And I'm like, I mean, ultimately it doesn't.
Speaker B:But it's also not like something that I'm gonna wrap my identity around either.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Like, so it's.
Speaker B:I. I get.
Speaker B:But yeah, I'm just kind of a middle of the road dude.
Speaker B:Like, I've never understood the massive, you.
Speaker A:Know,.
Speaker B:End to end reactions about this movie.
Speaker B:I'm like, it's just a Tim Burton stop motion movie.
Speaker B:Like, it's.
Speaker B:It's where people realize that he liked to do that.
Speaker B:And I think Tim Burton's a secret genius that never lets his genius actually come to true fruition.
Speaker B:Like, that's.
Speaker B:He always gets in his own goddamn way.
Speaker B:And this is a great example of that.
Speaker B:But, like, I mean, it's a clever idea, but I ironically think it's more of a Christmas movie than I do a Halloween.
Speaker A:Movie.
Speaker A:Oh, really?
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Just the theming and like that.
Speaker B:But yeah, like, that's where.
Speaker B:Yeah,.
Speaker A:I think you're wrong, but.
Speaker B:Right, that's fair.
Speaker B:That's fair.
Speaker B:And listen, it's been a minute since I've actually, like, I hadn't watched this movie in a decent amount of time.
Speaker B:Like, yeah, it, it had been a while.
Speaker A:I wish I could say the same, but it.
Speaker A:That's fair.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker B:Fair.
Speaker B:I mean, yeah.
Speaker B:When you have.
Speaker A:Someone a very long time.
Speaker B:I was going to say, I'm sure it's.
Speaker B:It's on a regular cycle or rotation in your house.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:It is, but it's, it's so.
Speaker A:It's weird to me, the effect this had on pop culture.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like, and just speaking from my own personal life.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So I met my wife working at Disney.
Speaker A:Disney every year changes their Haunted Mansion ride to be Nightmare.
Speaker A:They have so many different museums or exhibits that go up that we travel to specifically that are like Tim Burton or Nightmare Before Christmas.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:They're just out there popular.
Speaker A:So I think a lot of my kind of hate comes from everything else around the movie.
Speaker A:But then, like, it's just the, the aspect.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So it's.
Speaker A:It's essentially a musical, stop motion musical.
Speaker A:The songs to me are okay.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like, they're not this great.
Speaker A:Absolute, phenomenal soundtrack.
Speaker A:It's good.
Speaker A:They're okay.
Speaker A:But it's like, I mean, my wife will sit there and sing along.
Speaker A:She doesn't sing along to anything.
Speaker A:So I'm kind of looking like, what the is wrong?
Speaker A:But as stop motion goes again, it's okay.
Speaker A:It's not like super fantastic.
Speaker A:Oh, this is amazing.
Speaker A:It's good.
Speaker A:But that, like, the, the idea behind it for me is it's just an okay movie doesn't.
Speaker A:And then the praise for it is just astronomical.
Speaker A:And I don't understand why that makes any sense.
Speaker B:Oh, it makes perfect sense.
Speaker A:Especially.
Speaker B:The last part.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So like, I look at this, I'm like, oh, no, this is straight up Halloween movie.
Speaker A:Halloween Town.
Speaker A:Here we go.
Speaker A:It's all about Halloween.
Speaker A:And then, you know, it's interesting you brought up the guy who decorates because I have a buddy.
Speaker A:I used to work with Nick.
Speaker A:I think I talked about Nick before.
Speaker A:He makes all the bags.
Speaker A:He decorates his house, his Nightmare Before Christmas every year.
Speaker A:And his reason is so he can leave it up for three months.
Speaker A:He doesn't take it down.
Speaker A:So he decorates In October.
Speaker A:And he like built everything.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:It's all like wood handmade, all his decorations and he puts it out in October and then he just leaves it up because it works.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker A:And so even that, like, I'm like, okay, I get what you're doing there.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But it's, it's just weird because it's like, no, to me, this is straight up Halloween movie.
Speaker A:I couldn't imagine watching this at Christmas time.
Speaker A:We have to because of my wife.
Speaker A:But I don't typically watch like, she puts it on, but I never watch this around Christmas time.
Speaker B:Yeah,.
Speaker A:It's a Halloween movie for me.
Speaker A:And it's weird because the only time that I will be like, hey, we should watch this is October.
Speaker B:That's funny.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker A:It's never, never ever been a Christmas movie in my mind.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, I mean, I get that's.
Speaker B:The other thing is like, I may disagree, but I get the, the sentiment.
Speaker B:Like I can see both sides.
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker B:I'm one of those that I could argue both sides of it.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:So that's why you were like, you're wrong.
Speaker B:I'm like, I mean, sure.
Speaker B:And that's what this is.
Speaker B:This is the best.
Speaker B:This is funny because I'm usually the exact opposite.
Speaker B:Like, I usually have.
Speaker A:Very strong opinions,.
Speaker B:A firm foothold on my opinion and where I stand.
Speaker B:And in this movie I'm like,.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think it stems from the fact that I'm just like, I don't.
Speaker A:You just don't care about.
Speaker B:This movie.
Speaker B:Does nothing for me.
Speaker B:So I'm like, I don't care.
Speaker B:Call it a Christmas movie.
Speaker B:Yay.
Speaker B:Call it a Halloween movie.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:Like, I just, it just doesn't.
Speaker B:But like, for me, I see more when I have watched it.
Speaker B:Like, I've always seen more of like the overarching Christmasy Christmas theming, meaning, like, and even behind the whole idea of, you know, the king of Halloween town, who when you think about that, like, should be the epitome of like scary, monster, creepy, you know, and like all those things are there, they in the design, right?
Speaker B:Like the long lanky ass legs, the pencil thin body, the skeleton looking, you know, the skull looking face, the facial features, like, and then all the things that are in the Halloween town, you're like, well, this is Halloween, right?
Speaker B:Like there's no doubt about it.
Speaker B:But it's the whole mentality of.
Speaker B:But we like Christmas.
Speaker B:Christmas is interesting.
Speaker B:Like, this is interesting.
Speaker B:I want to bring some of these elements of, you know, Christmas and the whole Christmas Spirit and all that stuff into Halloween town.
Speaker B:I mean, only to find out that it's already there.
Speaker B:But like, it's just one of those things where it's like, to me that's the aim of the movie is to show that you don't need to have Christmas happening for there to be the spirit air quoting for those just listening of Christmas involved in wherever you're at.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Like it can be a year round thing and can be active no matter where you're at and who you're dealing with.
Speaker B:Except Oogie Boogie.
Speaker B:But anyway, like, it's just one of those things where I.
Speaker B: at I've seen since, you know,: Speaker B:So it's like, it's one of those rare times when I was even young when this movie came out and you were.
Speaker B:Oh, twinkle.
Speaker A:Born yet.
Speaker B:I know you were just a twinkle in your mama's eye, but it's like, yeah, but it's just one of those things because even back then, like I saw it and when I was a kid, I still don't.
Speaker B:I have no love for stop motion animation.
Speaker B:Like, I don't have a hate for it necessarily, but like, it just isn't my thing.
Speaker B:So it was never like, o, look at this.
Speaker B:It's cool.
Speaker B:It's interesting.
Speaker B:I was like, what's this movie about?
Speaker B:Skellington's kind of interesting, but other than that, I'm like, meh.
Speaker B:But yeah, that's why for me it's Christmas Day.
Speaker B:Because it's the overarching theming.
Speaker B:But again, from a visual standpoint and like the fact that you're in Halloween town, I don't know.
Speaker B:Like, that's where I'm like, okay, it's a Halloween movie.
Speaker A:Well, the thing for me was like, because I get what you're saying about the Christmassy spirit.
Speaker A:But I was going always more surface level, which is the shrunken head and the Christmas present to the kid.
Speaker A:Like, that's Halloween.
Speaker A:That's the trick part of Trick or treat.
Speaker B:Yeah, fair enough.
Speaker A:Or the, you know, the jack in the box that's gonna eat your face off.
Speaker B:True.
Speaker A:Like that.
Speaker A:That to me is why I look.
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, no.
Speaker A:This is just.
Speaker A:You're using this to traumatize your children so they don't ask for Christmas presents.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That's all this is.
Speaker B:Because.
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker A:You're gonna teach them that if they ask for something that Santa doesn't want to bring them.
Speaker A:He's just gonna send them a shrunken head.
Speaker A:And so that's how I always looked at it, is that this is one of those movies where again, like, I'll sound like I don't see the point of.
Speaker A:Other than like traumatize your kid.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because like, you put a five or six year old in front of this, maybe not now, but you put five year old me in front of this, I would hate it.
Speaker B:Fair.
Speaker A:It would ruin everything for me.
Speaker A:Whereas if we take a movie that we have on in the past, which would be Polar Express, like a five year old sitting in front of that, that's like your Christmas movie.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I always look at it a little bit from almost like a kid's perspective.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because even.
Speaker A:Even though, well, again, I'm getting trouble for saying this.
Speaker A:Probably married a child, you know, my wife's almost 40 and still like, we gotta go out trick or treating, we gotta go out, get costumes, gotta do the carving.
Speaker A:Pumpk.
Speaker B:Hey.
Speaker A:And I'm like.
Speaker A:Because at the time, by the time I turned 10, I was like, okay, I'll just stay home and pass out Gambi.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah, Fair enough.
Speaker A:And so it's a.
Speaker A:It's a weird kind of thing because I always look at this.
Speaker A:Or when we get into the holidays, I'm looking to either watch movies I grew up with watching as a kid, or I kind of judge movies based on how I would have done.
Speaker A:Seen him as a kid.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because as I've gone older holidays have started to mean less.
Speaker A:I'll say, like, it's more of just.
Speaker A:This is.
Speaker A:This is a.
Speaker A:Just another day in the year.
Speaker A:Nothing necessarily super special about it.
Speaker A:Like today we're recording this.
Speaker A:It's Halloween.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Saturday morning.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But if you ask him, it's like the quintessential, most important day of the year.
Speaker A:There's some people who are like, Halloween is my day.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:And they go all out for it.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:And it's a.
Speaker A:It's a weird kind of contradict experience, but I find that most of my marriage is like that.
Speaker A:It's weird.
Speaker B:Welcome.
Speaker A:Somewhat exactly opposite of me.
Speaker B:I hear you.
Speaker B:I hear you.
Speaker B:Well, yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, you know.
Speaker A:How that works, huh?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know how Casey is with Christmas?
Speaker B:Like, that's.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like, I'm like, whatever.
Speaker B:But, well.
Speaker B:And her sister is the Halloween that you're talking about.
Speaker B:Halloween's her holiday.
Speaker B:Like, in fact, I'll probably, before it's all said and done with, end up at their house tonight.
Speaker B:And I'm like, I go.
Speaker B:And I'm like, hey, we're.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:This is a nice charcuterie board we got here and some lovely cocktails and we play games.
Speaker B:But I was like, we could do this next Saturday.
Speaker A:Yeah,.
Speaker B:Or we could have done this last Saturday.
Speaker B:Difference is you put a lot of work in all these decorations that you're now gonna have to take down and put back in the basement.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:No, I'm with you on that one.
Speaker B:Like, I don't holidays for me, it did not take long in my life for me to go.
Speaker B:What?
Speaker B:Why?
Speaker A:What's the difference between this day and another day?
Speaker B:Yeah, like I just don't.
Speaker B:Especially the big ones like in the over commercialized ones.
Speaker B:I'm just like, yeah, whatever.
Speaker B:Like I get annoyed.
Speaker B:And this isn't so far off the topic, but it, I mean, kinda, but I get annoyed like when it's end of August and Halloween shits in the stores.
Speaker B:I'm like,.
Speaker A:It was July this year.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker A:I was seeing stuff in July.
Speaker B:And on the same token, I get super annoyed when it's middle of October.
Speaker B:Halloween hasn't even happened yet and there's Christmas getting loaded in the aisles.
Speaker B:I'm like, what are we doing?
Speaker B:It annoys me because it's like then at that point in my mind, then for the majority, in a very generalized way, right.
Speaker B:This is not a knock on individuals or families or groups of people.
Speaker B:This is a generalized piece of information that I gather is that our holidays have become too over commercialized in that situation.
Speaker B:Because all that matters is getting the out earlier so people buy it, so we make money.
Speaker B:That to me that's just what it is.
Speaker B:So the holidays at that point lose what they were intended for in most cases, at least in general.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:This is, this is definitely in the aggregate, not individuals or groups.
Speaker B:But like, I also think that's why to me the holidays that I actually look forward to are like the memorial days and the, you know, the, the labor days and the stuff that like.
Speaker A:You can't commercialize.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's, it's, it's exactly, it's, it's an, it's a good excuse, if you will, for people to get together.
Speaker B:And then on the same time, like I don't have to go out and buy a bunch of for it.
Speaker B:At most on Memorial Day, I go and pay tribute to those that were.
Speaker B:That served within my family and, and beyond.
Speaker B:So like that kind of thing, there's, there's still some meaning to some of Those holidays.
Speaker B:Whereas to me, like the idea behind Christmas is long gone.
Speaker B:The idea behind Halloween is not even remotely close.
Speaker B:If you look at what it was.
Speaker B:Thanksgiving, same thing.
Speaker B:Like Thanksgiving might be the closest.
Speaker B:Because how do you commercialize.
Speaker B:Oh wait, that's right.
Speaker B:Football and goddamn food.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So there it is.
Speaker B:Like it's just.
Speaker B:Anyway.
Speaker A:Well, it's the shift to friendsgivings is what Thanksgiving is doing.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker A:With the, with the.
Speaker A:We kind of talked about this in our little, you know, shoot around before we actually started recording.
Speaker B:Is.
Speaker A:How fast everything's going and just speeds up when you have Christmas decorations, which Christmas is 25th of December, a week before the end of the year coming out three months before the holiday.
Speaker A:And same thing with Halloween.
Speaker A:So, you know, because I, I saw, you know, you see like the spirit Halloweens.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That go over, those start popping up.
Speaker A:Like June.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Is when you see the banner start popping up.
Speaker A:And so talk about your 12 months.
Speaker A:Halfway through you're planning for month 10.
Speaker A:And then before month 10 even happens, you're planning for month 12.
Speaker A:And so this speed at what it's.
Speaker B:Going.
Speaker A:Instead of like.
Speaker A:I remember it used to be like after Thanksgiving because we used to be, we'd get together for Thanksgiving, whole big extended family here in Arizona.
Speaker A:And then it was after, then after we had our Thanksgiving meals where you go put up the Christmas lights at grandma's house or whatever and do a whole little train of putting up Christmas lights at everybody's houses.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:Now Christmas lights, if they come down at all.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:Are back up like as soon as the weather starts to turn cold.
Speaker B:Yeah, 100%.
Speaker B:100%.
Speaker A:And you have, you know, social media has probably done a lot to as well where now you have like those drive through Christmas lights or these little kind of commercialized places where you can go and participate in an actual event.
Speaker A:Those start getting advertised because any tickets sold.
Speaker A:So then those advertisements start coming through earlier and earlier and earlier in an effort to sell more tickets, sell out shows, do all this stuff.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker A:It just continues to speed up the time that we are living in.
Speaker A:And so now it's almost like, you know, the month of December or the month of October is actually quarter of the year.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's a fair point.
Speaker B:I didn't really think about that, like how that could impact, like how you feel like you're already.
Speaker B:Because you're right.
Speaker B:Like in July and August and all this stuff starts popping up.
Speaker B:You're like, it feels like it should be fall and winter and it's the middle of the Goddamn summer.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's 150 degrees outside.
Speaker B:That too.
Speaker B:But anyway, Nightmare Before Christmas.
Speaker A:You can tell how much I hate this movie.
Speaker A:Conversation away from it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:There's no passion on either end for us about this movie because we just talked about holiday times, like way outside the scope of this movie.
Speaker B:But though, is it.
Speaker A:I mean, it.
Speaker A:It touches on it.
Speaker A:We get an Easter Bunny appearance.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so, I mean, there are points in this movie where it kind of go, haha, that was clever.
Speaker A:And the Easter Bunny is one of them.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And there's just the handful of little.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's a Tim Burton thing.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Where he slips is funny in with dialogue.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So it doesn't even almost register.
Speaker A:Whereas other kind of directors or other creators will have that, you know, almost pause, look at the audience, break the fourth wall sitcom kind of thing.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Where Tim Burton slips it in.
Speaker A:And so there's moments where I kind of chuckle or giggle or laugh, but there's far too much that I, like, already have ingrained in me with hate.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's almost never going to change, no matter how many times ago.
Speaker A:Oh, that was clever.
Speaker A:Ha ha ha.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's just.
Speaker A:It's just hard for me to get into it because I have that already existential hate.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker A:To it.
Speaker A:But I do, I do like the music is good.
Speaker A:Music is good.
Speaker A:It's okay.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's not like I'm gonna like, oh, this is put on the.
Speaker A:The Nightmare Before Christmas soundtrack.
Speaker A:Let's listen to that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But it's.
Speaker A:It's one of those movies that's just kind of like me.
Speaker B:I was gonna say.
Speaker B:So you.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:It's funny listening to you talk.
Speaker B:Like if you remove all of the outside pieces of it, like, you sound a lot more like me.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker A:Then.
Speaker B:There's this like, out of principle.
Speaker A:There's a.
Speaker B:Title despite.
Speaker A:It's a Learned Hate is what it is.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because the first time I watched it was like, you gotta watch this movie.
Speaker A:I can't believe you've seen it before.
Speaker A:I watched it and I was like, oh, okay, that's cool.
Speaker A:I'm glad I watched that.
Speaker A:And then I had to watch it again.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And again.
Speaker A:And I've been with my wife now for, you know, we've been together for nine years.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Nine years almost.
Speaker A:Coming up on 10.
Speaker A:And it's.
Speaker A:That's nine years of having to watch this several times a year.
Speaker A:A lot.
Speaker B:Of Nightmare Before Christmas, a.
Speaker A:Lot of Night Before Christmas, a lot of going to Disney during the holiday Period.
Speaker A:A lot of.
Speaker A:Look at this.
Speaker A:This is Jack Steeler.
Speaker A:A lot.
Speaker A:Look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this.
Speaker B:Hey, I live somewhere yet where you can put one of those 12 foot goddamn jack Skellingtons in your yard.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, no, just got the five foot one by the door.
Speaker B:Yeah, I saw that.
Speaker B:But like, you should see, you drive around my neighborhood and like, the 12 foot jack skeletons are prevalent.
Speaker A:Yeah, no,.
Speaker B:And it's funny because it's the one that stays up from Halloween.
Speaker A:To next Halloween.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Jack Skellington.
Speaker B:I listen from an overall perspective of this movie, though, Like, I.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:For me, it's not.
Speaker B:There's nothing that stands out.
Speaker B:Like, I'm just not.
Speaker B:I think that's the one part for me.
Speaker B:Like, one way or another.
Speaker B:Like, I can talk all day about movies I hate.
Speaker B:I can talk all day about movies I love.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:This one I like.
Speaker B:These are movies that like.
Speaker B:Movies like this, for me are ones that I struggle sometimes to talk about.
Speaker B:And I'm like, it's because I just don't give a either way, because it does nothing for me.
Speaker B:Like, there's no.
Speaker B:And thankfully, I'm in the opposite mode of you.
Speaker B:Like, Casey actually has, like, a disdain for this movie.
Speaker A:Oh, that's the one thing we've ever agreed on.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:I know, right?
Speaker B:So I'm like, yes, it's not.
Speaker B:I mean, there's a lot of Christmas movies that I'm like, oh, my God.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:That I'm like, I don't want to watch this again.
Speaker B:But this has never been on our.
Speaker B:Our to do list ever.
Speaker B:Which is other than this is the first time I've actually been like, okay, I actually have to sit down and watch this movie for a reason.
Speaker B:And yeah, I did.
Speaker B:Even though I probably could have not.
Speaker B:But I did.
Speaker B:And I watched it last night going, why am I watching this again?
Speaker B:Oh, that's right, the podcast.
Speaker B:I gotta talk about it.
Speaker B:But it just.
Speaker B:And that's the thing is, like, there's nothing that gets me going with it.
Speaker B:Like, I'm not like, we must talk about this on the.
Speaker B:I'm like, whatever you want to talk about.
Speaker B:We'll.
Speaker B:We'll figure it out and then go from there.
Speaker B:So with that, having not really talked about this movie at all, should we rate it?
Speaker A:Let's do it.
Speaker B:All right,.
Speaker A:I'll go first.
Speaker A:Two.
Speaker A:I'll give it two.
Speaker A:It's a pity too, but the disdain that I have for it comes from A learned experience and it will never go away.
Speaker A:So I can hardly hold that against it.
Speaker A:The movie itself is just kind of blah, man.
Speaker A:It's a movie that's about as good as you can get out of it.
Speaker A:I don't understand the absolute love that people have and make this movie their entire identity.
Speaker A:If you are one of those people, don't reach out.
Speaker A:I'm okay not knowing, but yeah, it's a two for me.
Speaker A:I will be watching this again many, many, many times over the next 30 to 40 years.
Speaker A:Yay me.
Speaker B:Oh yes.
Speaker B:Let the hate grow.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:We should REVISIT this in 50 years time.
Speaker B:Oh man.
Speaker B:I'm gonna give.
Speaker B:I'm gonna go a little higher than you from a.
Speaker B:A purely objective perspective, right?
Speaker B:So I'm gonna give it a three.
Speaker B:And I say that because I in the case that I have had many conversations about this movie because I'm always curious about why people love it or hate it most.
Speaker B:And again, I'm aggregating here.
Speaker B:Most of the people that I talk to hate it for the exact reasons that you're talking about.
Speaker B:Like there's an over saturation of it.
Speaker B:There's a lack of understanding because it's at the end of the day, in my opinion, and it sounds like in yours, a mediocre movie at best.
Speaker B:But people have really just latched onto it and found this love for it.
Speaker B:So that drives people like us that are like, what I don't understand, crazy.
Speaker B:So then we have this learned behavior of hatred that's mostly.
Speaker B:There's a few people that I like.
Speaker B:I just think it's a shitty movie.
Speaker B:I don't like it.
Speaker B:It's not my thing.
Speaker B:I'm like, okay, great.
Speaker B:I respect that.
Speaker B:I don't understand the people that just have this fascination for it and like you said, like wrap their identity around it and it has to be present in some way, shape or form at all times.
Speaker B:Like, I don't understand that.
Speaker B:So that's the other extreme though.
Speaker B:They either are like, like you said, it's very polarizing.
Speaker B:It's either I hate it and most of the time it's because other people love it so goddamn much, or they love it to the point that I'm like, but can you explain to me why.
Speaker B:And I just get what's.
Speaker B:Because it's.
Speaker B:It's just the greatest movie ever made and I just love it and it's.
Speaker B:It's cute and it's fun and I'm like, that's not reasons.
Speaker B:That's fine.
Speaker B:But that's not a reason why it's a good movie.
Speaker B:That's a reason as to why you love it.
Speaker B:And, and that.
Speaker B:And they're two very different things, right?
Speaker B:So I.
Speaker B:But when I think about it objectively, and I take all the other out, like, it's cute, it's got decent music, I don't hate the theming of it like that.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:Like, it's fine.
Speaker B:It's an interesting take on the importance of Christmas, especially when it can be saturated with the other holidays that are going on.
Speaker B:And then there's other holidays that take a back seat to Christmas.
Speaker B:Because the instant you get to that last quarter of the year especially, you do have Christmas lights popping up.
Speaker B:You do have the Christmas.
Speaker B:Even when there is Thanksgiving and fall stuff going on, Christmas is there.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so that over saturation, does it impact the other holidays?
Speaker B:Does it matter if it impacts the other holidays?
Speaker B:But I.
Speaker B:So I think it has some very interesting theming.
Speaker B:And then whether I like it or not, Tim Burton, he's a genius in his own right with his own way of doing things.
Speaker B:Whether you like it or not, it's clever and it's interesting and it's different and it's unique.
Speaker B:So I do find that there's some success in this movie if I look at it objectively.
Speaker B:But for me, it's just not a for me thing.
Speaker B:But I am going to give it a three because I do find it entertaining on occasion and on parts, I just think as a whole, it just is whatever to me, like, it's not.
Speaker B:I think if I were doing it subjectively, I'd give it at best a two and a half.
Speaker B:But I'm trying to look at this one objectively so that not both of.
Speaker A:Us are coming.
Speaker B:From a place of learned hate.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:My ass.
Speaker B:When they're like you, I'd date man before.
Speaker B:No, that was Alex.
Speaker B:He did that.
Speaker B:I said it was objectively a decent movie,.
Speaker A:Just in case.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker B:Cover my ass.
Speaker B:I'm sorry.
Speaker B:I get at it all the time.
Speaker B:I don't want to get the ads on this one.
Speaker B:And I will probably watch this again at some point, but not because I chose to.
Speaker B:It'll be because someone else was like, let's watch this.
Speaker B:Or it's all on them and you know, it's just never my first choice.
Speaker B:So there it is.
Speaker B:That's the Nightmare Before Christmas.
Speaker B:And kicking off, is this Christmas or a Halloween movie?
Speaker B:Alex, everybody can find us when we're not dodging oogie Boogie and Halloween Town.
Speaker A:Oh, just stay away from Oogie Boogie in Halloween Town.
Speaker A:You'll be just fine.
Speaker A:Yeah, so I'm curious.
Speaker A:I think it's Halloween movie.
Speaker A:JJ thinks it's a Christmas movie.
Speaker A:What do you think in the comments?
Speaker A:Both is not an answer.
Speaker A:You're wrong.
Speaker A:Christmas movie is not the correct answer.
Speaker A:You're also wrong.
Speaker A:But you're free to be wrong in whatever way you want to be wrong in.
Speaker A:But yeah, you're wrong.
Speaker A:Best place to find us is on YouTube where you see our smiling faces early morning on Halloween as we record.
Speaker A:Aside from that, Patreon is the best place to get involved where you can actually get involved in the content creation when we're not it up royally.
Speaker A:We do have votes going out on Patreon that are absolutely free to participate in to help select the content for the podcast.
Speaker A:Aside from those votes though, there is a little bit of paywall where you can access upwards of 700 plus episodes of full length episodes.
Speaker A:Everything from bloopers, outtakes, all the way up to those full length episodes of movies that nobody should watch.
Speaker A:But we went ahead and did for you.
Speaker A:That's all available behind a little bit of a paywall, but it is 100% free to get involved in Patreon in the voting aspect to get involved in the content we create again when we're not fucking it up.
Speaker A:But with that, don't forget w gg 10% off your order with code rverdict.
Speaker A:Christmas is coming up, so make sure you get your dubby gifts for your friends and family of green coffee bean extract.
Speaker A:But with that, I'll kick it back to the titan of terror, the colossus clout A JJ.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker B:You scared the out of me with your leg.
Speaker B:His Christmas is coming up.
Speaker B:I was not like, I was kind of in and out and I about peed myself.
Speaker B:Dude, that was some.
Speaker A:Before you.
Speaker B:God damn, dude.
Speaker B:It was like you had stumbled on this genius.
Speaker B:Christmas is coming.
Speaker B:Oh, I got me on that deal.
Speaker B:Well done.
Speaker B:But yeah, there you go.
Speaker B:Now that I'm awake and fully functional, go check all those things out.
Speaker B:And as always, we appreciate you tuning in.
Speaker B:We'll catch you on the next one Cinematic out.
