Avatar: The Way of Water (2022)
The primary focus of this podcast episode is a critical examination of "Avatar: The Way of Water," a film directed by James Cameron that has elicited significant dissatisfaction from both hosts. They express their profound discontent, asserting that the film fails to capture the essence of its predecessor while simultaneously rehashing its narrative in a manner that lacks originality and coherence. They delve into various aspects of the film, discussing its storytelling flaws, character development issues, and the apparent reliance on visual spectacle over substantive plot. They articulate their frustrations regarding the film's numerous inconsistencies and perceived lack of character depth, particularly concerning the portrayal of the protagonist, Jake Sully, and the newly introduced characters. Ultimately, they conclude that the film is not only a disappointment but also an unfortunate manifestation of Hollywood's current trend toward superficiality and financial exploitation in cinematic storytelling.
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Transcript
Go check us out on Patreon.
Speaker A:I'm just trying to avoid talking about this movie.
Speaker A:And you can torture me too.
Speaker A:It's a pastime for a few people around this joint right now.
Speaker A: It's been a Tor: Speaker A:Please God, someone help me.
Speaker A:Welcome to the what's Everyday podcast.
Speaker A:We fashion ourselves cinematic judge and Jerry My is J.J. crowder.
Speaker A:I'm here with my co host Alec Burgess.
Speaker B:Let's get it.
Speaker A:We appreciate you tuning in.
Speaker A:Go ahead, hit that.
Speaker A:Follow subscribe like bell notification buttons.
Speaker A:Tell a friend, tell a family member about us.
Speaker A:Tell more blue people about us.
Speaker A:Make sure they're nine feet tall though, because I don't want some.
Speaker A:Six.
Speaker B:That's the caveat.
Speaker A:Yeah, if they're six feet in blue, I don't care.
Speaker A:That's just the blue man group.
Speaker A:I want avatars.
Speaker B:With that.
Speaker A:We're into week two of James Cameron films and I'm just as miserable as I was last week, if not more so.
Speaker A:Because in week two we're doing Avatar 2, the Way of Water.
Speaker A: ,: Speaker A:It was written and directed by James Cameron.
Speaker A:He had a couple extra writers for this one.
Speaker A:Rick Jaffa and Amanda Silver.
Speaker A:It stars Sam Worthington, Zoe Saldana, Segori Weaver, Stephen Lang, Kate Winslet, Cliff Curtis, Joel, David Moore, CCH Pounder, Edie Falco, Brendan Cowell, Jermaine Clement.
Speaker A:I'm gonna stop again because I'm still gonna keep going and going if I don't.
Speaker A:Jake Sully lives with his newfound family formed on the extrasolar moon Pandora.
Speaker A:Once a familiar threat returns to finish what was previously started, Jake must work with Natiri in the army of the Na' Vi race to protect their home.
Speaker A:That is a wildly inaccurate synopsis and yet accurate at the same time.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Anyway, go check us out on Patreon.
Speaker A:I'm just trying to avoid talking about this movie.
Speaker A:And you can torture me too.
Speaker A:It's a pastime for a few people around this joint right now.
Speaker A: It's been a shitty starts: Speaker A:Please God, someone help.
Speaker A:But with that.
Speaker A:Alec, this is your movie.
Speaker A:Why the am I talking about it?
Speaker B:This.
Speaker B:This was entirely.
Speaker B:Because I saw an opportunity.
Speaker B:Thank you, Charles.
Speaker B:To.
Speaker B:To make your life miserable.
Speaker A:Oh, God.
Speaker B:And week one was, you know, I.
Speaker B:There.
Speaker B:There was enough good in that that I can, you know, put.
Speaker B:Put a little pin and it's like I knew this was gonna be bad for you, but at the same time it's, you know, we saw something talk about this One.
Speaker B:No, this is straight.
Speaker B:Big old capital letters you.
Speaker B:And it's because everything in this move, everything in the first one that I liked is nowhere in this one.
Speaker B:I mean, the.
Speaker B:I said it last week.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:The beginning part of, you know, the first one.
Speaker B:Great setting up the story.
Speaker B:It's awesome.
Speaker B:This terrible.
Speaker B:The setup to the story where we get there.
Speaker B:Awful addition of kids stupid.
Speaker B:Don't bring in these little.
Speaker B:They're the worst now.
Speaker B:Now it's their movie.
Speaker B:So your.
Speaker B:Your useless main character in the first one has offspring who are now the main characters in the movie.
Speaker B:Which means that your.
Speaker B:Your main title character pretty much is useless in both movies just to different people there.
Speaker B:What I really liked about the kind of military technical advising that was going on, Gone.
Speaker B:There's nothing special in there.
Speaker B: uals are still good, but it's: Speaker B:And so they're not as good, if comparably to everything else that's out there.
Speaker B:I'll say they're still great.
Speaker B:And then there's just.
Speaker B:I. I think James Cameron forgot where he ended the story because now we got freaking spider who just drops in out of nowhere, out of the blue.
Speaker B:Like it's.
Speaker B:It's just so cobbled together again, but even worse.
Speaker B:And so in the first one, I could be like, hey, I really like this part.
Speaker B:I think this would be great.
Speaker B:You know, do all that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Then we get this.
Speaker B:And once again you have the movie which is the.
Speaker B:The fight when they're in the mountains, they're attacking trains.
Speaker B:And you got this underground movement going.
Speaker B:And then the synopsis even says fighting for their home.
Speaker B:Except five minutes in the movie, they up their butts and.
Speaker B:Nope, out of there.
Speaker B:And I'm just like, why?
Speaker B:Just one big old why.
Speaker B:And so there's.
Speaker B:There's very little in this movie that I can look at in comparison to like last week where I was, hey, I really like this.
Speaker B:I really like this.
Speaker B:This made sense to me.
Speaker B:I enjoy watching for this reason.
Speaker B:There.
Speaker B:There's a lot less of that.
Speaker B:And it's just.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It still relies on the visuals and the story is.
Speaker B:In this case, I think the story is even fourth to the visuals.
Speaker B:And so it's.
Speaker B:It's even worse because now they haven't even transplanted really a story.
Speaker B:They're just like, hey, let's just throw this possum the wall.
Speaker B:See?
Speaker B:Sticks.
Speaker B:And as.
Speaker B:As much as I love him, if you're gonna kill Lane in the first movie, don't bring his ass back yeah, as.
Speaker B:As an avatar.
Speaker B:That's not really an avatar because it's just the transplanting the brain.
Speaker B:And I was just saying he's so much cooler with the scars.
Speaker B:Walking around the camo.
Speaker B:So you took your best character.
Speaker B:You brought him back.
Speaker B:Fan service is what I think that was.
Speaker B:But then you made him worse and it aced in the unfortunate parties.
Speaker B:He's still my favorite part of this movie.
Speaker B:It's just Steve Lane and his goddamn voice.
Speaker B:Miles Quaritch is perfect.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker B:But there is very little in this movie that I thoroughly enjoy.
Speaker B:And it's just.
Speaker B:It did this one.
Speaker B:This was entirely for the you.
Speaker B:Because I don't like this movie very much.
Speaker B:But I had to.
Speaker A:It's fair.
Speaker A:That's fair.
Speaker A:I hate you, but it's fair.
Speaker A:Listen, first of all, three hours.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker A:12 minutes.
Speaker A:That's your first problem.
Speaker B:You're welcome.
Speaker A:That's your first problem.
Speaker A:Second, I'd never seen this before because I had refused to watch it.
Speaker A:So thanks for that.
Speaker B:You're welcome.
Speaker B:That's like.
Speaker B:That's like four movies out of six.
Speaker B:This.
Speaker A:Trust me, I know.
Speaker A:I have been wrangled into some I swore I would never do quite a few times in the last couple months.
Speaker A:But this one takes the cake.
Speaker A:This movie and a.
Speaker A:Listen at me all you want.
Speaker A:This movie sucks.
Speaker A:This is not a good movie.
Speaker A:It's beautiful.
Speaker A:But again, to your point, you make a great statement and I thought the same.
Speaker A: We're not in: Speaker A:You're not changing the game here.
Speaker A:And I laughed because I was outside doing some laser when I watched this movie.
Speaker A:And afterwards Disney plus sent me right to the making of which was much more interesting than the movie itself.
Speaker A:But I laughed because they made this huge deal out of this motion capture.
Speaker A:The performance capture and how they're rein.
Speaker A:No, you goddamn.
Speaker A:Didn't you introduce.
Speaker A:And then Gollum took it to the next Scott.
Speaker A:Well, Gollum started the.
Speaker A:And then you took it to the next level and.
Speaker A: s, has outdone your ass since: Speaker A:Thankfully.
Speaker A:You created.
Speaker B:You.
Speaker A:You speed sped up the game.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:You force people to think, get involved, do performance capture versus motion capture, blah blah, blah, blah.
Speaker A:However, you adding an extra camera to the face.
Speaker A:Not a new thing.
Speaker A:Video games been doing that for.
Speaker A: Since: Speaker A:So like you added nothing which you can.
Speaker A:You can say that about this movie versus the other one you can talk about.
Speaker A:Oh, it spent so much time in a water tank water world.
Speaker A:They've been Doing that for a long time, too.
Speaker A:I don't care that Sigourney Weaver set some breath holding record with this movie.
Speaker A:I don't give a.
Speaker A:It's a bad movie.
Speaker A:If you have to hype up so much about how you made it you up.
Speaker A:So all you did now was take 20 minutes of my life at the beginning and show me these kids growing up in this.
Speaker A:First of all, why'd they just leave?
Speaker A:Okay, so you kill Quaritch, and the whole thing caves under.
Speaker B:Like, what?
Speaker A:Okay, fine.
Speaker A:You took them over.
Speaker A:Great.
Speaker A:They all leave.
Speaker A:Did you really think they weren't coming back?
Speaker A:Sully, you're a Marine and a human being.
Speaker A:Did you really think they weren't coming back?
Speaker A:Okay, stupid number one, Stupid number two, Earth's dying all of a sudden.
Speaker A:Like, first it's about Unobtainium, now it's about, we need a new place to live.
Speaker A:Shut the upper.
Speaker A:What a MacGuffin?
Speaker A:Like, up the plot.
Speaker A:McGuffin of.
Speaker A:And not only that, but it's unoriginal, too.
Speaker A:How many times have we watched movies where it's like, well, we need to expand because the Earth's dying quite a few out of here.
Speaker A:And then to your point, if you've had five kids.
Speaker A:Your entire tribe's had five kids.
Speaker A:How many more navi are there in the jungle right now?
Speaker A:And you're.
Speaker A:You can barely take out a train.
Speaker A:Why didn't you just saddle your ass up and as soon as they landed, make them pay again?
Speaker A:You have the formula.
Speaker A:All you had to do.
Speaker A:Oh, we see the ships.
Speaker A:Oh, no.
Speaker A:Let's go find out.
Speaker A:Saddle up the panthers and the hammerhead elephants and the goddamn flying.
Speaker A:And go.
Speaker A:Hey, you remember when you left 15, 20, 20 years ago, or whatever it was?
Speaker A:We're still here.
Speaker A:We're bigger, we're stronger, we're more organized.
Speaker A:Go the away.
Speaker A:It's so unbelievable to me that we end up in this place of right back where we started, not to mention.
Speaker A:Okay, next piece.
Speaker A:20 years and you haven't evolved at all.
Speaker A:You don't have scientists, you don't have.
Speaker A:You have all this technology around you.
Speaker A:You have guns, you got body suits, you got trailers that people.
Speaker A:There's technology everywhere.
Speaker A:Sigourney Weaver's still floating in a goddamn bathtub in the base.
Speaker A:Somebody's got to be smart enough in your tribe to start to figure out how to recreate some technology, right?
Speaker A:Build some.
Speaker A:You have a mountain of Unobtainium underneath your goddamn feet.
Speaker A:Why have we not evolved at all?
Speaker A:And I don't I'm not expecting some modern technological goddamn marvel of a community.
Speaker B:But build a palisade.
Speaker B:Do something.
Speaker B:Do something.
Speaker A:There is not a there.
Speaker A:There is not a civilization on the boat planet in the world, in the universe that stayed stagnant for 20 years.
Speaker A:It doesn't exist.
Speaker A:It may move slowly.
Speaker A:Like I'm not expecting some industrial age level, you know, tech age growth.
Speaker A:And you're.
Speaker A:But come on, something.
Speaker A:But you're still using bow and arrow.
Speaker A:Bows and arrow and spears.
Speaker A:And come on, it's not.
Speaker A:And I would understand it if they hadn't had the humans there before and they didn't have this stuff around them.
Speaker A:But you've got Sully.
Speaker A:He has to have some level of understanding that these people are coming back.
Speaker A:He also has to be able to think about one, there's other tribes and even if your tribe's too to figure some out.
Speaker A:Go see the water people.
Speaker A:Apparently I haven't seen the third and thank God, I probably, hopefully I will never will go see the fire people.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:Go find somebody.
Speaker A:I'm not.
Speaker A:I don't even want to.
Speaker A:I can't even fathom that.
Speaker A:Anyway, this movie pisses me off because you went from copying a story to we don't have another story to copy.
Speaker A:So it.
Speaker A:We're just gonna make random ass up and make these people and this civilization like, look to me like a bunch of dipshits.
Speaker B:Like, well, it's.
Speaker B:It's the same movie.
Speaker B:And so I'm in the same boat.
Speaker A:As you with six of them now instead of two.
Speaker B:I'm in the same boat as you because.
Speaker B:And look, spoilers for the third one.
Speaker B:I know you're not gonna see it, but if anybody else who watches gonna see it.
Speaker B:Third one's the same movie as well.
Speaker B:Yeah, it is the same movie each single time.
Speaker B:And so he, James Cameron, like hard resets it.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:And so I think you have.
Speaker B:This is where I was kind of saying, like the timeline doesn't seem to match up because he wraps up the first movie, right?
Speaker B:And it's like, oh, bye bye, big granddaddy dragon, right?
Speaker B:Like we don't need you anymore.
Speaker B:Time of war is done.
Speaker B:Now it's time for peace.
Speaker B:All that good stuff.
Speaker B:And so that way if you never make another Avatar movie, you're good, Right?
Speaker B:This one's all nice and pretty, got a nice little bow on top of it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Now he's making the second one.
Speaker B:He's got a hard factory.
Speaker B:Reset it all the way back to the beginning and Tell the exact same story all the way through again.
Speaker B:Now we're just changing little bits and pieces of it.
Speaker B:And so it's.
Speaker B:It's weird because now it's like.
Speaker B:It's almost like the question was asked, okay, what if instead of Jake Sully join the navi.
Speaker B:It's, you know, it's Miles Quaritch.
Speaker B:What happens if Miles Quaritch is the person in the Avatar scene and.
Speaker B:Because I've seen the third one.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:That kind of progression continues to almost go.
Speaker B:It's like, okay, so it's.
Speaker B:It's almost like this is now the Miles Quartz story.
Speaker B:What would have happened if Miles Quartz didn't, you know, what wasn't the salt of the earth marine type of a thing?
Speaker B:And he goes.
Speaker B:And he's the one who kind of makes the changes or, you know, is willing to step into the shoes of the native tribe and go native.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so it's.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's weird because it's.
Speaker B:It's still supposed to be Jake Sully.
Speaker A:Yeah, right.
Speaker B:We still spend all the time with Jake Sully and his family, but Jake Sully sends no time on screen.
Speaker B:It's all his kids who are just the worst.
Speaker B:I hate him so much.
Speaker B:Terrible, terrible, terrible.
Speaker A:I love Took.
Speaker A:She's great.
Speaker A:Little Took's amazing.
Speaker A:She cracks.
Speaker A:But everybody else is.
Speaker B:It's almost like a stupid coming of age story.
Speaker B:Yeah, right.
Speaker B:And it's.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker B:The problem is that there's so much that could be done that would be great.
Speaker B:And it's just.
Speaker B:No, no, no, no, no.
Speaker B:I want to tell this, you know, dysfunctional story as best as I can, or I'm gonna purposely make this a dysfunctional story to tell it poorly, so then I can have a reason to make a third and a fourth and, you know, create.
Speaker B:Create character development.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:It doesn't happen, by the way, but, you know, we'll pretend that it still could.
Speaker B:And so it's the same story, except we're just changing background.
Speaker B:Instead of giant trees, there's now giant fish.
Speaker A:Well, yeah.
Speaker A:You went from Native Americans to colony already.
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:That's it.
Speaker A:You went.
Speaker A:Okay, we'll tell the Native American story now we'll tell the Polynesian story.
Speaker A:And it works because.
Speaker A:And I was.
Speaker A:Can I just.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I almost hucked my laptop when we got into this harvesting whale oil shit, dude.
Speaker A:I almost.
Speaker A:I seriously, I don't remember being that pissed off at a movie in as long as I can think, like, because I went.
Speaker A:Now we have Unobtainium and what was the dumbass name of the whale oil because it was just as stupid.
Speaker B:Am I.
Speaker B:Am I right or something like that?
Speaker A:Dumb.
Speaker A:It's terrible.
Speaker A:I was like, really?
Speaker B:Well, it's funny you bring that up, because they kicked the Navi out of the forest, right?
Speaker B:So all the Unobtainium, he's all fair game now.
Speaker B:They're all living in the Hallelujah Mountains.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:It says.
Speaker B:Cracks me up.
Speaker B:Because now it's like, oh, you know what?
Speaker B:Actually, no.
Speaker B:Unobtainium has now become too obtainium.
Speaker B:So we.
Speaker B:It's too easy now.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Amrita.
Speaker A:Here's the funny part is Amerita sounds like what they should have named Unobtainium.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Anyway, I was mad.
Speaker A:I was mad.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Amrita.
Speaker A:That so.
Speaker B:And it's.
Speaker B:It's dumb because you don't need it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You have the story already, which is Quaritch is out for revenge, so he's gonna follow Jake slowly wherever he goes.
Speaker B:Jason went to the water course.
Speaker B:Are you gonna go there?
Speaker B:You don't need the, you know, eco whale hunting trope to be thrown in there.
Speaker B:Yeah, you don't need it.
Speaker B:It doesn't.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker B:Like, it exists in the movie primarily, aside from.
Speaker B:I think what is virtue signaling is primarily to be Quartz's ride.
Speaker B:But he got those dragons now.
Speaker B:He doesn't need a ride.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So, I mean, it's like they also serve as backup, but you can just have a navy there because they're like, equipment that they use for their whale hunting.
Speaker B:Pretty cool, right?
Speaker B:Like the craft.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I want one that's, like, military.
Speaker B:You just make that a military thing.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Don't need this economical drive or whatever.
Speaker B:You.
Speaker B:You already have all your pieces to what you need.
Speaker B:You don't need these extra stuff.
Speaker B:And it drives.
Speaker B:It drives me nuts because it's.
Speaker B:It's adding too much.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so this.
Speaker B:This is.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker B:It's weird, but the thought came to me like, this is.
Speaker B:This is portrayed almost as Movie One.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But it's using stuff from Movie One.
Speaker B:And so you have all the building blocks that usually happen in, like, the, you know, initial movie in a series, trilogy, franchise, whatever it is, you still have all those building blocks, but you already had them.
Speaker B:It's like he just took the blocks and rebuilt his tower over here.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker B:And it.
Speaker B:It doesn't make sense because you have everything that you need already, and now you're just adding extra bloating the movie time and everything cool that is shown.
Speaker B:You could just, you know, slap an RDA military Branch sticker on it and you're good.
Speaker A:Can I ask a question?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:That maybe you'll have the answer to when we commence the big final battle and all of the water folk are pissed off and they're fighting with Jake Sully after like the whole thing.
Speaker A:And the foot where the do they all go when they get on the ship?
Speaker A:And the whales, the big angry whale, which don't even start it on that storyline, but the big finless whale comes in and just.
Speaker A:Which was a dope scene, by the way, when he lands on the boat and he's slapping the.
Speaker A:Out of people.
Speaker A:Dude thinks he's a badass shooting a harpoon.
Speaker A:I'm like, he already took one of those.
Speaker A:He knows what's coming.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Slaps it out of the way.
Speaker A:Like, I love that moment.
Speaker A:Just give me angry whale movie.
Speaker A:And I'm down.
Speaker A:But he comes out like, they're all fighting.
Speaker A:Everybody's flowing around water.
Speaker A:People are pissed.
Speaker A:They're fighting.
Speaker A:Everybody's going to town.
Speaker A:Then all of a sudden it's just the Sully family and the whale.
Speaker A:And I'm like, wait a minute.
Speaker A:We have son number one dies.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Spoiler alert.
Speaker A:Why do we not have backup?
Speaker A:Like, if they had still come, they over run this whole thing.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Where'd they go?
Speaker A:And I, I literally asked myself while I'm watching.
Speaker A:I was like, where the are the rest of these guys?
Speaker B:Union break.
Speaker B:No, it's.
Speaker B:It's something that I've noticed recently in movies and it's.
Speaker B:It drives me nuts because there's a couple movies.
Speaker B:We're not talking about them here, but where they do this thing where you, you pump up your numbers that you have to make it like a more epic battle.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But then you're inconsistent for the entire thing.
Speaker B:Like people like they're the entire tribe.
Speaker B:Just like you said, up and nopes out of there.
Speaker B:But they're still there.
Speaker B:At the end of the movie, they come back.
Speaker B:They're all still there.
Speaker B:They're all around.
Speaker B:It's just like they're.
Speaker B:They're just busy off, you know, they're.
Speaker B:They're giant flying water dragons.
Speaker B:Got hungry or something.
Speaker B:They're out fishing.
Speaker B:No shit.
Speaker A:Like, I don't.
Speaker B:It does make sense because.
Speaker A:No sense.
Speaker B:You can still add them in and have your fight scene.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Or don't have them at all.
Speaker B:And just have the Sully family and wreck shit.
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker A:Or at the very least give me an injured whale that they have to protect.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, yeah.
Speaker A:Do something that makes me go, okay.
Speaker A:I Know why they're not there and why it's just the Sully family versus Quaritch and the rest of the Marine Na' Vi guys.
Speaker A:Like, but I'm watching that fight where they're taking them on at the end, like.
Speaker A:And he's got the knife to the dudes and I'm like, where are they?
Speaker A:Like, this whole thing could have been avoided because there were hundreds of them and now there's nobody except the Sully family.
Speaker A:Like, you guys wanted to fight.
Speaker A:He kept your ass out of it.
Speaker A:You guys decided to join it and you're just gonna peace out on this dude when gets real?
Speaker A:Like, yeah.
Speaker B:And like the, the reef area they're in.
Speaker B:Not that big.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B: like this fight's taken over: Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like it's pretty contained area that they're.
Speaker A:One big ass ship and a bunch of little ones.
Speaker A:And it just.
Speaker A:That was the final straw for me that I was like that this makes no sense whatsoever.
Speaker A:None.
Speaker B:Because it's just.
Speaker A:I was like, you just had this whole fight.
Speaker A:They're trapped under the water.
Speaker A:All this, all of that could have been prevented with the swarm when they.
Speaker A:The whale comes in and just wipes out the house.
Speaker A:Dude.
Speaker A:At that point I.
Speaker A:If I'm the Navi army, Water army, I'm like a right?
Speaker A:You are about to die.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because now we have the numbers.
Speaker A:Not to mention, where did whale boy go?
Speaker A:He's big enough.
Speaker A:Couldn't he just get under that goddamn thing and lift it up out of the water for a minute so everybody's not drowning, you think?
Speaker A:Just saying.
Speaker A:There's just so many inconsistencies in this movie that it drives me.
Speaker A:And that's in all serious.
Speaker A:Like I, I want to on this movie because it's funny, but at the same time I have to on this movie because it's made another billion dollars or whatever or close to.
Speaker A:And it doesn't deserve.
Speaker A:Does not deserve the first one.
Speaker A:Fine.
Speaker A:I can live with it.
Speaker A:Because it was different.
Speaker A:It was new, it was wild.
Speaker A:This one does not deserve praise.
Speaker A:It just doesn't.
Speaker A:And it pisses me off that people are climbing up James Cameron's dick about this movie.
Speaker A:And the, in the third one and the fourth one that's coming and the fifth one that's coming because I'm like, we're morons if we sit and I'm sorry if you love this movie.
Speaker A:I have to question your intelligence.
Speaker A:You're either going, I don't care that it's bad and it's beautiful and it's entertaining because I don't want to think about anything or.
Speaker A:You're looking at this going, this is a well written movie and get the out of here with that because this movie's terrible.
Speaker A:It's so inconsistent.
Speaker A:There's so many plot holes and it's just a way to.
Speaker A:It's a money grab and we're forking it over like it's cheese.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Ready for my hot take?
Speaker A:Yes, please.
Speaker B:Gonna get us canceled.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker B:Quaritch is right in this.
Speaker A:Yes, please.
Speaker B:Look.
Speaker B:Course is wrong.
Speaker B:The first movie, right?
Speaker B:This movie, he's right because his entire role and purpose is to go get Jake Sully, who and pretty much bring him in for court martial.
Speaker B:Dude, dude was a Marine who deserted, went over to the enemy and then turned on his people and was responsible pretty much for every single Marine death that happened in the first movie.
Speaker B:So you bring back the commander, right?
Speaker B:And you give him the memories.
Speaker B:And his one job is pretty much to go out and get the guy who defected and bring him in for court martial.
Speaker B:He's right.
Speaker B:I hate to break it to you, but that, that's the other problem I have with this is that there's a lot of, A lot of virtue signaling.
Speaker B:Signaling in these movies.
Speaker B:Then, like, you're supposed to be on the right side of history.
Speaker B:This or that or whatever it is.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But if you look at it from like.
Speaker B:And the first one, I'd be like, hey, look, perfect.
Speaker B:Makes sense.
Speaker B:You're telling the Pocahontas story.
Speaker B:We all know right from wrong in that story.
Speaker B:But now you bring this into a new story and you're trying to.
Speaker B:You still want me to side with Jake Sully.
Speaker B:It's not going to happen.
Speaker B:Yeah, like, he, he's the problem in this movie.
Speaker B:And it's, it's, it's one of those things where it's.
Speaker B:It's a little bit awkward because you're trying to tell this story about, you know, like, oh, he's the Jake solely.
Speaker B:He's the victim in this.
Speaker B:And he's not, never will be.
Speaker B:But you add in all this other stuff with the, you know, humans are still the bad guys because they're out hunting whales, giant whales, sentient species, and they're only taking a little vial of Amrita.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That's all they're taking.
Speaker B:Leaving the rest.
Speaker B:You have that kind of thing with the.
Speaker B:I mean, you could compare it to the buffalo and the bison in America.
Speaker B:Yeah, Right.
Speaker B:So you have to have that parallel.
Speaker B:The problem Is it's not Quaritch who's doing that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's the corporation course.
Speaker B:Got one job.
Speaker B:It's going, get your deserty Marine, bring them back in for court martial.
Speaker B:And I'm sitting there right now.
Speaker B:This is the part that's going to get us canceled.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So at least for those who live in the States, a lot of us either grew up or around with the war in Iraq.
Speaker B:Now you say whatever you want.
Speaker B:Probably shouldn't have been in Iraq for as long as we were.
Speaker B:Probably shouldn't have been there at all.
Speaker B:But you're gonna tell me that if you had a Marine stationed in Iraq who deserted, went over to Al Qaeda, trained them to fight against Marines in Iraq, you're gonna be on his side?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:And you can spin the propaganda machine this way or that way, however you want to say it, but the problem, the biggest issue I have with this movie is, course, isn't the bad guy anymore.
Speaker B:He's supposed to be.
Speaker B:He still acts like he is, or he's viewed as he is the bad guy.
Speaker B:The problem is, again, we'll spoil the third one a little bit.
Speaker B:The third one is even more so where it's.
Speaker B:Now you really have that struggle back and forth of trying to force Quaritch into the bad guy role.
Speaker B:But all the dialogue that they gave him is showing once again, that it's.
Speaker B:No, I actually don't give a shit about Pandora.
Speaker B:My problem is you killed my Marines.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:That's the.
Speaker B:It shows up.
Speaker B:It's like, that's the problem I have, is you kill my Marines.
Speaker B:And that's the point of this story, is he's not going out to hunt Navi.
Speaker B:When we first meet him in the Hale Mountains.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:He's going out for one specific person, Jake Sully.
Speaker B:And all the mishaps and misadventures along the way are all due to.
Speaker B:He's got.
Speaker B:It's, It's.
Speaker B:It's a.
Speaker B:A little bit tricky because he's got one kind of, you know, directive.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Find Jake Sully, bring it back.
Speaker B:And he was given a loose leash on how to do that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so that's where he fits back in the bad guy role.
Speaker B:Sitting there going, like, as more this movie goes on, the more I'm on his side.
Speaker B:Geez.
Speaker B:If your idea was to, you know, kind of shift the hearts and minds of people.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Didn't do a very good job of it, because I'm sitting there going, quaritch is right.
Speaker B:Like the Marine Corps armed Forces, but especially Marine Corps, they built different.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You don't just get to, you don't just get to leave if you decide that, you know, you want to be an Avatar forever now.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Sorry, that's not how it works.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I'm sitting there watching a lot of this going, damn, I'm not voting for who I'm supposed to vote for, but I feel bad voting for the guy I'm supposed to.
Speaker A:It's true.
Speaker A:Listen, I this movies like this in general, because I'm with you, the virtue signaling in this movie is insane in both of them, but this one was insanely insane.
Speaker A:And, and I agree, like, it's just like, oh, we're getting real political now.
Speaker A:But there's a lot going on in our world today.
Speaker A:I'll say it that broadly.
Speaker A:And, and while there are a lot of terrible on both sides that are happening, there's also a lot of people that are making arguments and like this movie does that doing the right thing supersedes laws, if you will, or you know, the common sense thing because you somewhere in one person's mind, Jake Sully's mind in this particular situation, he's doing the right thing.
Speaker A:Exactly the right thing over makes him more right than everyone else.
Speaker A:And, and while I may agree that I 100 agree that colonization in the form that we see it in these movies is absolutely horrific and wrong and should not be done in this way, that doesn't change the fact that one person doesn't get to supersede the rules and the laws of where you're living and what you're doing right.
Speaker A:And we can look and go, that is a great moral decision.
Speaker A:It's still a stupid ass moral decision that has consequences.
Speaker A:And that's the part that pisses me off.
Speaker A:If you want to talk about virtue signaling real world experiences, movie experiences, when we say one person made a moral decision that I 100% agree is the morally correct thing to do, that doesn't mean that all of a sudden there's no consequences.
Speaker A:There are consequences to doing the right thing.
Speaker A:There are consequences doing to doing the right wrong thing.
Speaker A:There should be, though they don't always pan out that way, but there should be.
Speaker A:And what we think as human beings, and especially here in the United States, because we have the beautiful opportunity to be free and to have our freedom of speech and be able to do these things and say these things and feel this way and express it in that way, we go, okay, doing the right thing makes me right, therefore everything else is wrong.
Speaker A:And I shouldn't have circumst.
Speaker A:I shouldn't have responsibilities or, or consequences because it's the right thing.
Speaker A:That's not the way the world works.
Speaker A:And so when we see these movies, all it does is reinforce these terrible thoughts of you can do something and get away with it because it's the quote unquote right thing.
Speaker A:But the right thing is always subjective.
Speaker A:100% it's subjective.
Speaker A:It shouldn't be, but it is.
Speaker B:You could also add to that that there's the idea that if you're the person who makes that moral call, people will rally to your cost.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's fair.
Speaker A:It's a good point.
Speaker B:Because they won't.
Speaker B:One, people are inherently selfish.
Speaker B:We're gonna do whatever the fuck we want.
Speaker B:And you know, you have to have the charismatic back it up type of a thing, which was really back to Avatar.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:You're to rook mock dow.
Speaker B:People follow you.
Speaker A:Why?
Speaker B:Because you got the big ass granddaddy dragon that you then sent away and it pops up in this movie like you're tarook mocktail.
Speaker B:You're to rukta.
Speaker B:You're true mocktail.
Speaker B:But it's that, you know, the one thing that could rally everybody to your cause, your moral cause you threw away.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And you won't go back and get.
Speaker B:And spoiler alert, in the third movie, go back and get.
Speaker B:And so makes this movie, when you look at 1, 2, and 3 together, useless.
Speaker B:Yeah, it makes it useless.
Speaker B:And you have this.
Speaker B:I like the way you put it where it's like there's consequences to every action, good or bad.
Speaker B:You may not like it, may not agree with it, it may not be right, but it's gonna happen.
Speaker B:And so it just goes back to.
Speaker B:I'm sitting there going, sorry, dude.
Speaker B:And you have an opportunity, right, to kind of have these consequences happen.
Speaker B:Jake's really.
Speaker B:Bye bye.
Speaker B:He's not really in the movie anyway.
Speaker B:It's all about his kids anyway.
Speaker B:So you have the opportunity, once again, consequence for your action.
Speaker B:What does that do?
Speaker B:Well, that, you know, makes the kids mad.
Speaker B:So kids are gonna grow up and they're gonna have revenge or try and get revenge on Miles Quaritch.
Speaker B:And so you have all the right puzzle pieces to make this into, oh, let's tie this back.
Speaker B:Let's, you know, have this move forward.
Speaker B:But no, your useless main character continues to be useless.
Speaker B:And once again is everybody's still rallying to his cause that he's put down and he no longer wants to be a part of.
Speaker B:And just it's trying to almost connect apples to oranges and make them into one.
Speaker B:It does.
Speaker B:It's not working with everything that's going on in this movie.
Speaker B:It's just.
Speaker B:And after watching the third one, this is useless.
Speaker B:There is no reason for this because the third one is more of a carbon copy to this than I thought even possible.
Speaker B:Yeesh.
Speaker B:And it's, it's the only reason to have the second one is because the oldest son dies.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's it.
Speaker B:That, that's the one plot point that moves forward.
Speaker A:Crazy.
Speaker A:All you're doing is solidifying that.
Speaker A:I'll never see the third one.
Speaker A:It just.
Speaker B:Charles.
Speaker A:The only thing that intrigues me about the third one at all 100 is Una Chaplin, because I think she's amazing.
Speaker A:And, and I've heard she does great in the movie, so.
Speaker A:Correct that and Stephen Lang, because Stephen Lang's always great.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:And the two of them together, I've heard is quite interesting, but I just.
Speaker A:The rest of it, I'm like, It's still a three and a half hour movie that I'm like not interested in anybody else.
Speaker A:And their bit parts, they're the quote unquote villains, so why do I care?
Speaker A:Because they're gonna lose.
Speaker A:Because that's the other part that you can't have a box office movie like this or set of movies where the, the nobody's a.
Speaker A:Nobody's ballsy enough to let the villain win anymore.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like, they're just not.
Speaker A:Because we don't live in a world where independent movies or out of the box movies work.
Speaker A:And, and it's unfortunate because there's a carnival potential here.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:No, really, what it is, is thanks to streaming services.
Speaker A:That's the problem.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's the.
Speaker A:As much as we love them, they, they have, they are the literal downfall of the movie industry because there's no DVD sales, there's no, there's no back end money.
Speaker A:So you can't afford to make a shitty movie because there's no way to recoup your money after the fact like there used to be.
Speaker A:So it's, it's a weird thing, but this is the kind of.
Speaker A:That I'm just like, oh God, this is why I hate Hollywood today.
Speaker A:Because everybody's got to have something to say and they got to do it in the most outrageous way.
Speaker A:And then they let story go and, and just spectacle is what we're after.
Speaker A:And that to me, is what these, especially the first one, fine, I give it some grace.
Speaker A:But from here on out, these movies are Nothing but spectacle and money grab, in my opinion.
Speaker B:And what?
Speaker B:It's hard to blame him because every time he makes.
Speaker B:When he makes a billion dollars.
Speaker A:Well, no, and I'd do it too.
Speaker B:So, yeah, like, it's.
Speaker B:It's hard for me to blame James Cameron because I know exactly same exact thing ain't right.
Speaker B:I would 100%, because every single time he makes money, makes a billion dollars, it's the same movie.
Speaker B:We all go watch it, right?
Speaker B:Well, not you.
Speaker A:You all go.
Speaker B:We all go watch it.
Speaker B:And I know walking the theater that I'm going in to see the same exact movie I've seen before.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But I do it anyway because of my wife.
Speaker B:And after the movie, I'm like, I already saw this movie.
Speaker B:I knew it.
Speaker B:I knew it.
Speaker B:Walking in.
Speaker B:I do it anyway.
Speaker B:And the consequence of my action is that I walk out going, I just wasted three and a half hours of my life.
Speaker B:And all I know is the exact same thing that I went in.
Speaker B:Knowing I watched same movie.
Speaker B:It just changes ever so slightly.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:To whatever person voted that created a tie that let me use my powers to make sure I didn't have to go to a theater to watch the third one of these fucking shit shows.
Speaker A:Should we rate this thing?
Speaker B:Let's do it.
Speaker A:Your turn, my friend.
Speaker B:Oh, so this.
Speaker B:This is bad movie.
Speaker B:There's no other way around it?
Speaker B:I. I've seen it twice.
Speaker B:I didn't like it.
Speaker B:Really?
Speaker B:Either time.
Speaker B:Well, I saw it when it came out in theaters because my wife.
Speaker B:And then I saw it again for the podcast.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:Has it been a couple years?
Speaker B:It's a very solid one.
Speaker B:And we didn't talk about it, but the.
Speaker B:The added part to this is Sigourney Weaver's daughter, whatever thing is like the.
Speaker B:The supernatural that gets added, where she can control the sea, plants, and everything that shows up in the third one.
Speaker B:That's kind of like the.
Speaker B:The new thing.
Speaker B:It's stupid.
Speaker B:I don't like it.
Speaker B:But you have, again, the best part of this movie or the best part of this franchise.
Speaker B:We'll say best parts.
Speaker B:Zoe Saldana, Steve Lang.
Speaker B:That should be the fight.
Speaker B:And it is.
Speaker B:It is the fight.
Speaker B:It's just not the forefront of the fight.
Speaker B:It's like the.
Speaker B:The effect of having this fight.
Speaker B:And it's stupid because that's.
Speaker B:That's where it should go.
Speaker B:That's what it should have been in movie one.
Speaker B:That's what it should have been Movie two.
Speaker B:And you.
Speaker B:It should just be them clashing back and forth and takes too much out of that.
Speaker B:So that by the time we have that matchup in a three hour long movie, it is 90 seconds.
Speaker B:Yeah, and it was 90 seconds in the first one.
Speaker B:Yeah, 90 seconds the second one.
Speaker B:And it's, it's the, that's where your matchup should be.
Speaker B:That's what you should have is you have the, you know, Defense of the Native and Natiri and then you have freaking the colonizing force and Quaritch Jake solely complicates things.
Speaker B:Shouldn't be there.
Speaker B:Stupid love story.
Speaker B:Complicates things.
Speaker B:Shouldn't be there.
Speaker B:But you, you have the opportunity to keep your bad guys a bad guy.
Speaker B:But the way to tell a story, he's the good guy, in my opinion now.
Speaker B:Sorry.
Speaker B:And so it's, that's why I give some grace to the first one.
Speaker B:But when you get to this one, it's a one and it's not a good movie.
Speaker B:And I, I don't foresee myself ever watching it again because I won't have to.
Speaker B:But if I am going to return to the universe, I'll just watch the first one.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's what it is.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I'm giving it a 0.5.
Speaker A:It's down there with my.
Speaker A:Not the worst movies, but it's close.
Speaker A:I, I listen and you brought up a good point.
Speaker A:Like there's so many things that happen in this movie and this is one of, one of the biggest gripes I had when I was watching it.
Speaker A:Like, I literally was like, what the, where did this even come from?
Speaker A:Like, you're talking about you.
Speaker A:I don't remember her name, but Sigourney Weaver's character now and then like the pregnancy there and how, who, when, why?
Speaker A:Are you serious?
Speaker A:Yahweh.
Speaker A:And then the second piece that pissed me off is Yahweh is this big player in the first one.
Speaker A:Where the, is she in the second one?
Speaker B:Union break shows up again.
Speaker B:Third one.
Speaker A:Seriously?
Speaker A:Well, because like for real.
Speaker A:And, and not even just like that.
Speaker A:She doesn't do anything but is she's stupid or there's this, this is a stupid deity because they send in this team of marines dressed like Navi and her little warrior people that kept them out of the thing this whole time all of a sudden are just like, oh, they're one of us.
Speaker A:And then you even see it like the little panther thing runs up and goes, oh, no, we're good.
Speaker B:They're blue good.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Come on, man.
Speaker A:If this isn't, if this is a deity that can pick out Jake Sully knowing he's a human that's in an avatar body and say, hey, he's our savior, if you will.
Speaker A:Why can't they.
Speaker A:Why does this God all of a sudden not able to identify avatars versus actual Navi?
Speaker A:So there's just so many things, and those are just an example set of why I got really frustrated watching this movie.
Speaker A:Beyond the fact that I just had no desire to watch it.
Speaker A:But it just.
Speaker A:It.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:There's so many holes and it doesn't make any sense.
Speaker A:You took this mov.
Speaker A:This movie that we've already seen, did it again and then made it worse by having all these things that are just unexplainable and make no sense.
Speaker A:So stop being lazy and stop paying people to watch this movie.
Speaker A:Like, stop it.
Speaker A:Stop making James Comer billions of dollars because you think it's cool when it's not.
Speaker A:Like, watch what you're watching anyway.
Speaker A:It drives me nuts.
Speaker A:Sorry.
Speaker A:Pisses me off.
Speaker A:It's a 0.5.
Speaker A:I'd give it a zero, but we did last month, so I can't.
Speaker A:I can't do it.
Speaker A:But I will again.
Speaker A:This is God willing.
Speaker A:This is Yahweh willing.
Speaker A:This is the last time I'll ever watch this movie and I'll never watch another one.
Speaker A:If I get my way, I know that Charles will be doing everything that he can to make it happen, but please God, I did.
Speaker A:This movie sucked.
Speaker A:So there it is.
Speaker A:Tell everybody where they can find this one.
Speaker A:I'm not on blue people.
Speaker B:Happy to go.
Speaker B:Stress it again.
Speaker B:YouTube JJ's JJ's aged like 40 years in the last six weeks.
Speaker B:I swear you can see the pain and the suffering, the anger, the hatred just bottle up behind this pretty little eyeball.
Speaker B:YouTube.
Speaker B:Check us out there for our faces and sadness in some cases.
Speaker B:But aside from that, Patreon at what's Our Verge Reviews is the best place to get involved with our content currently because we decided at the beginning of the year we're going to make these votes that previously were just for funsies actually mean something.
Speaker B:So you can get involved in our content by going to our Patreon at whatever reviews voting for completely free to get involved in that because of our new vote system.
Speaker B:We also have Pain if you lose.
Speaker B:There are no participation ribbons here.
Speaker B:Podcast if you lose, your list of movies that you do not want to watch gets put on the Patreon.
Speaker B:Those can be purchased and we will do a bonus episode for the movie depending on whose list is up.
Speaker B:That depends on if you win the month or not.
Speaker B:And if we tie, both lists go up.
Speaker B:So right now, in February, we tied.
Speaker B:Both lists are up.
Speaker B:You can get the just the tip list for me or just the tip list for jj, which are movies that we both don't want to watch, but they're not so bad.
Speaker B:It's just the tip.
Speaker B:Special thanks to our current patrons, Rich and Charles, for coming in clutch these last two months.
Speaker B: is having the worst start to: Speaker B:It is great, but he.
Speaker B:He does get his revenge.
Speaker B:Last two weeks, February coming up.
Speaker B:We actually have some good movies that you guys can turn into and listen to.
Speaker B:So special thanks to you guys.
Speaker B:And with that, I'll kick it back to the Titan of Terror, the King of Crash, a jj.
Speaker A:Yeah, go vote for free.
Speaker A:Wait.
Speaker A:If you want to help me, go vote for free.
Speaker B:Because right now, JJ's movies are at the top of the list on the vote.
Speaker A:That's a lot.
Speaker A:That is a bold face lie, but yeah, no, I listen, I'm losing right now.
Speaker A:It looks like we may tie in March, but I'm losing in April.
Speaker A:And if we die and then I lose in my more than just the tip list goes up, and I am terrified of that list.
Speaker A:So, yes, I'm horrified.
Speaker A: Anyway, it's not a good: Speaker A:So, yeah, go check us out.
Speaker A:Go vote.
Speaker A:Help me.
Speaker A:And with that, as always, we appreciate you.
Speaker A:We'll catch you on the next one, Magica.
